The Grumpy is upset that people don't have a strong incentive to repeatedly run dungeons once they start raiding or doing LFR:
So it got me to thinking about what would make dungeon more relevant for a longer period of time.I left a comment responding to that last line in particular:
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My idea would be this. Dungeon gear that drops will be 630 basic and as you kill raid bosses it can go up. Not like missions to the "next" level but to that level. Like lets say you killed 15 highmaul bosses in LFR, when you do dungeons the gear that drops will be 645. If you kill 15 highmaul bosses on normal it would drop 655, heroic, 670, and so on.
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The other problem might be that people would, or could, gear up too quickly that way. Once you down 15 bosses at a specific raid level just spam dungeons until you have all gear of that level. I can see that point and I believe I have a solution for that as well. Instead of the gear they "drop" being equal to your current raid level, have a bag at the end of the run for everyone, a bag they can only get once per day and that bag would contain 1 piece of gear, guaranteed, for your current raiding level. So the dungeon would still drop 630 gear otherwise, but once a day you have a chance to get something that very possibly could be an upgrade.
I know I would still do it that way.
Yeah, everyone would. In fact, every raider would kill 15 bosses on heroic the first day or two of content and then do a heroic dungeon every day.His response?
Why do you think forcing Mythic/Heroic raiders to do a heroic dungeon every day is a good thing? They're already likely spending 8+ hours a week working through the raid zone. You think that'll make them happier or be constructive for the game somehow?
I don't think it matters what they think, it is not for them, it is for the other 99% of the player base. You can't design the game around the few. So do I think mythic raiders would be happy about it? Don't know, don't care.So let's break this down.
They would be no more "forced" to do it as a mythic raider as I am forced to change servers if I want to raid mythic.
I choose not to, they can choose not to. Choice, it is a wonderful thing. Something blizzard does not have right now. This would offer it.
Bottom line is blizzard can do something to make dungeons more relevant past the first week of the expansion and this is the only idea I can personally think of that could breathe life into it.
If you have any other ideas I would love to hear them. But reward needs to matter and once raids come out I can't see any other reward they could offer.
First, his original idea: can you imagine killing 15 bosses in Heroic Highmaul and then having every single heroic dungeon boss dropping 670 gear? Thankfully, Grumpy managed to realize this *might* be a tad problematic and thus came up with a major improvement to his suggestion -- now you can "only" get one guaranteed 670 piece per day from a random dungeon.
Let's do some math...you basically get 0.2 items per boss you kill, on average, in the best case scenario. So during Highmaul, that means you should expect to pick up 1.4 items per week from clearing it on heroic. On *top* of that, you should also get seven additional guaranteed items from running a heroic dungeon! Let's see...that's a 500% increase in gearing rate by doing heroic dungeons. Or, in other words, 83% of your gear would come from heroic dungeons.
Now, to be fair, that's not counting the 3 coins per week (another 0.6 items) or the possibly of killing a mythic boss or two...let's say 2 mythic bosses for 0.4 items for 2.4 items per week counting 7/7H, 2/7M, and three coins spent. That's still a 291% increase in gearing rate from Grumpy's idea. Or 74% of your gear coming from heroic dungeons.
Yeah. That's probably not a good idea. Not even remotely. Facerolling dungeons tuned for 610 ilvl with an ilvl of 650-660 to get nearly 75% of your gear? Just...no. I hope I don't have to explain why that's such a bad idea (and that's not even getting into the issue of how you could stop even doing heroic raids and still get 7 heroic raid drops per week).
To put things in perspective, the garrison mission gives one raid drop every 14 days (and yes, it's technically a tier higher (unless you're a mythic raider already)).
Second, screw those mythic raiders. Or, quite frankly, any heroic or mythic raider (I guarantee you 90%+ of heroic raiders would be doing that daily heroic for a guaranteed 670 item). We can't design parts of the game around them. Along those lines, let's also change the following:
- No more weekly raid lockouts. 99% (note: heroic and mythic raiders make up more like 10% of the playerbase but we'll go with his number) of players won't run raids like crazy anyway.
- No more limited stacking of consumables. 99% of players won't bother having 20 potions and elixirs active.
- No more being limited to three seals per week. 99% of players won't bother getting more than three or so anyway because it keeps getting more expensive per seal.
- No more "belated" LFR release. 99% of players won't feel compelled to run it to maximize their gear.
- No more removing default tier and trinkets from LFR. 99% of players won't care about trying to snag those.
Finally, the mythic raiders have a choice and wouldn't be forced to do it, eh? You might say it was completely optional? Or maybe, just maybe, that's not actually true.
But hey, Grumpy wants dungeons to be relevant and the only way he sees this as being possible is for them to drop raid gear. Pets? Nope, doesn't care. Mounts? Nope, doesn't care. Gold? Nope, doesn't care. Transmog? Nope, doesn't care. Rep? Nope, doesn't care. Crafting materials/bonuses? Nope, doesn't care. Achievements? Nope, doesn't care. Garrison bonuses? Nope, doesn't care.
Gotta get more epicz.
I think the disconnect here is a difference of opinion on whether game design should be used to dictate player behavior. Grumpy seems to be on the side of no: let players do what they want, and don't worry about the "outliers" who go whole hog on the system. You seem to be of the opinion that yes, the game should be designed to limit player behavior.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think there can be ways to make dungeons more relevant than just dropping bigger purples. I note his post mentions nothing of Challenge Modes. More transmog gear, perhaps. Or have more raiding resources drop (like Runes, since we're currently stuck with them).
Overall, I think game design in a persistent world must take into account social factors. Players can and will burn themselves out running something to the death, and the gap between those who put in redonkulous amounts of time vs. Those who don't can really screw up the social dynamic. Take Vanilla PvP for example, where you pretty much had to be on 24/7 to maintain the best rank.
"You seem to be of the opinion that yes, the game should be designed to limit player behavior."
DeleteAnd I would think that the example of Tol Barad showed quite clearly why that is the case, no? Speaking specifically about how they gave ten times the reward to the attacking team which just caused people to alternate losing for an average payout of five times the reward. Social factors and game design clearly influence player behavior -- the question then becomes to what EXTENT it should be a concern.
And in this case, the "outliers" we're talking about (heroic/mythic raiders) make up over 10% of the playerbase (with about 50% of the playerbase not even max level last I checked). That's kind of a huge amount -- we're not talking about something that would only affect the top 10 guilds in the world or something.
"Personally, I think there can be ways to make dungeons more relevant than just dropping bigger purples."
I just don't want them to be more relevant for gear progression (and more than that, I don't see any reason why they SHOULD be more relevant for gear progression). Even if they gave 1000g for the first dungeon each day, 500g for the second, and 250g for the third I can still get the gold from other sources if I wish.
"Take Vanilla PvP for example, where you pretty much had to be on 24/7 to maintain the best rank."
Yeah, I remember grinding my way up to rank 11 (Commander) back then. You couldn't suck at PvP to get Grand Marshal, but it had far more to do with simply playing a ton rather than actually being good. And by "a ton" I mean 24/7 (like you said).
But is it really a good idea to "artificially extend" the lifetime of anything (dungeons included) buy adjusting the rewards accordingly so as to push people to do the same content once more? Why stop at heroic dungeons and not add all the old tiers and raids from previous expansions?
ReplyDeleteI mean, this would be more or less the approach which LotRO used for instances, and we saw how it ended....
"Why stop at heroic dungeons and not add all the old tiers and raids from previous expansions?"
DeleteI wholeheartedly agree.
I don't mind if they want to make gold, pets, mounts, etc drop from there (and that is the case, in fact!)...just don't make it part of the current gear progression.
"I mean, this would be more or less the approach which LotRO used for instances, and we saw how it ended...."?
Oh? Not aware of that (I basically know nothing about LotRO).
I still do dungeons every now and then when I run out dust. It's a good way to make money. Those enchanting dusts sell for a lot.
ReplyDeleteI'm no sure if I remember people doing dungeons in MoP after raiding was around.
TBH the only way to encourage people to do the dungeons is to change the reward. Dungeons should not give you raid equivalent gear! Primal spirits, or a bag similar to the ones that used to drop from Zandalari Warbringers (but WoD stuff) would be better. Only once a day though.
"I'm no sure if I remember people doing dungeons in MoP after raiding was around."
DeleteYou didn't, no. However, you did have to do Heroic Scenarios to valor cap. So those were "relevant" for the whole expansion (once introduced)...though technically you could also spam heroic dungeons for (much slower) Valor as well.
"Dungeons should not give you raid equivalent gear!"
Don't be silly. Killing the final boss of a heroic dungeon should give you a perfectly itemized set of socketed/warforged/all tertiaries mythic gear. Do you hate casuals or something?
Pfft. I can be a hard core dungeoneer! Hard core could mean a time investment rather than a raid investment!
DeleteGotcha, I understand, you were arguing for dungeon gear to be BETTER than raid gear ;)
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